People often say you cannot learn a language without learning about the culture. Here I usually want to ask what they mean by “can’t”: that it would be impossible or that it would be immoral?
But what culture do you learn when you learn a language? Take American English. It’s a really big country and there are terms that are locally used (think that over-exaggerated Minnesota accent you see in SNL sketches). And British English isn’t the same as Canadian English (and those will depend on region too. I’m a Toronto girl and some people here go to the cottage on weekends in the summer. I think they say “cabin” out west). Neither is the same as Australian English (again, that would depend on region too). My parents are from Hong Kong and speak Cantonese as their first and primary language. There are terms unique to HK and not used in other Cantonese speaking regions, loaner words from British colonialism.
I learn from you that states or same geographic areas can be multi cultural where people may identify themselves the same but yet have different 'flavors' of culture when the language reflects the different tastes. Refer the language as binoculars to culture.
But yet when you from Toronto that speaks Canadian English will meat me, a broken speaker of Programming English, we'll understand most of what will be say.
Good point. And it confirms that language is not inseparable from culture but it's inseparable from people, and these people can come from different cultures as you say.
I have a feeling that they've mostly grown out of them but that doesn't stop me from regularly finding bits of wisdom in Mo Willems timely masterpiece 😀
Language is indeed a window into a culture and also its history. Like the Germans have this formal version when talking to strangers or to people of higher ranks (position or age) than you, shows a glimpse of how probably long ago these ranking are very important and it's rude to speak out of your place. But nowadays German is also about being open and speak your mind, so it's kind of a remnant of an old culture. The old people may still get offended if they were not addressed with the formal language but the younger ones not so much or don't even care. Like in my company, the culture is to use informal tone because it also means being closer with each other, fostering trust and collaboration.
As for the Chinese, we do not have a formal version but we used to also care about ranks a lot, mostly in the family setting. You have to address everyone correctly by their rank in relation to you, trust me it fries any child's brain, and that is also slowly changing, where it is fine now to just call someone aunty or uncle if they are older, even that is still sticking on (I'm passing it to my kids too, or trying :))
I also contemplated a while back while learning German, on how we then talk to person of respect in Chinese, for example my grandma when I was young, without the formal version. I realize I spoke to her by repeating "Ah Ma" in place of "you", and it's possible to do that in Chinese because there are no verb conjugations!
very interesting, especially so because it seems there are many politeness rules that apply even to children, whereas in Russian there is only one formal pronoun and that's it, pretty easy
"Language is separable from culture. But language is inseparable from people who speak it, and people who speak it are inseparable from their culture." Sums it up. Thanks!
A slightly different angle on "culture": I used to get hung up on on the notion that "you can never be as good at a language as a native speaker" because, having grown up elsewhere, you don't have all the associations with terms and expressions that a native speaker would. After all, neither of us have meaningful childhood associations with, say, Santa Claus, or la Befana. I now see this as a red herring: there will always be experiences that some speakers of the language have had and others haven't. My NA English is indistinguishable from the language of those who grew up in NA, but I didn't grow up playing baseball and never learned much about it, so I can't converse about it the same way as many native speakers can. But in fact, many native speakers of NA English past a certain age also didn't grow up watching, say, Teletubbies - does that make them any less "native English speakers"?
Thank you for commenting, Michael. You've raised an important point, that even though culture is something that unites a group of people, it also differs a little bit for each person, just like everyone's language (idiolect) is a little bit different.
And thank you for sharing the article about Oji-Cree! It's really encouraging. Next step I hope they start teaching it at schools as the living language that it is.
Beautiful, thanks! Anthropologists have argued fiercely about this, like, forever. And you are spot-on to unravel this, because people do love an oversimplified story about the language-culture interface.
You masterfully stated my view about language and culture in these sentences, Tanya:
"Language is separable from culture. But language is inseparable from people who speak it, and people who speak it are inseparable from their culture."
But what culture do you learn when you learn a language? Take American English. It’s a really big country and there are terms that are locally used (think that over-exaggerated Minnesota accent you see in SNL sketches). And British English isn’t the same as Canadian English (and those will depend on region too. I’m a Toronto girl and some people here go to the cottage on weekends in the summer. I think they say “cabin” out west). Neither is the same as Australian English (again, that would depend on region too). My parents are from Hong Kong and speak Cantonese as their first and primary language. There are terms unique to HK and not used in other Cantonese speaking regions, loaner words from British colonialism.
I learn from you that states or same geographic areas can be multi cultural where people may identify themselves the same but yet have different 'flavors' of culture when the language reflects the different tastes. Refer the language as binoculars to culture.
But yet when you from Toronto that speaks Canadian English will meat me, a broken speaker of Programming English, we'll understand most of what will be say.
Good point. And it confirms that language is not inseparable from culture but it's inseparable from people, and these people can come from different cultures as you say.
My first takeaway was I know what books you read your kids 😆
I have a feeling that they've mostly grown out of them but that doesn't stop me from regularly finding bits of wisdom in Mo Willems timely masterpiece 😀
Language is indeed a window into a culture and also its history. Like the Germans have this formal version when talking to strangers or to people of higher ranks (position or age) than you, shows a glimpse of how probably long ago these ranking are very important and it's rude to speak out of your place. But nowadays German is also about being open and speak your mind, so it's kind of a remnant of an old culture. The old people may still get offended if they were not addressed with the formal language but the younger ones not so much or don't even care. Like in my company, the culture is to use informal tone because it also means being closer with each other, fostering trust and collaboration.
As for the Chinese, we do not have a formal version but we used to also care about ranks a lot, mostly in the family setting. You have to address everyone correctly by their rank in relation to you, trust me it fries any child's brain, and that is also slowly changing, where it is fine now to just call someone aunty or uncle if they are older, even that is still sticking on (I'm passing it to my kids too, or trying :))
I also contemplated a while back while learning German, on how we then talk to person of respect in Chinese, for example my grandma when I was young, without the formal version. I realize I spoke to her by repeating "Ah Ma" in place of "you", and it's possible to do that in Chinese because there are no verb conjugations!
very interesting, especially so because it seems there are many politeness rules that apply even to children, whereas in Russian there is only one formal pronoun and that's it, pretty easy
"Language is separable from culture. But language is inseparable from people who speak it, and people who speak it are inseparable from their culture." Sums it up. Thanks!
A slightly different angle on "culture": I used to get hung up on on the notion that "you can never be as good at a language as a native speaker" because, having grown up elsewhere, you don't have all the associations with terms and expressions that a native speaker would. After all, neither of us have meaningful childhood associations with, say, Santa Claus, or la Befana. I now see this as a red herring: there will always be experiences that some speakers of the language have had and others haven't. My NA English is indistinguishable from the language of those who grew up in NA, but I didn't grow up playing baseball and never learned much about it, so I can't converse about it the same way as many native speakers can. But in fact, many native speakers of NA English past a certain age also didn't grow up watching, say, Teletubbies - does that make them any less "native English speakers"?
On Oji-Cree: an encouraging news item:
https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/we-receive-strength-in-speaking-our-language-indigenous-mpp-makes-history-at-queens-park/article_e0f367b2-1d03-11ef-b192-4fce90cad4f1.html
Thank you for commenting, Michael. You've raised an important point, that even though culture is something that unites a group of people, it also differs a little bit for each person, just like everyone's language (idiolect) is a little bit different.
And thank you for sharing the article about Oji-Cree! It's really encouraging. Next step I hope they start teaching it at schools as the living language that it is.
Beautiful, thanks! Anthropologists have argued fiercely about this, like, forever. And you are spot-on to unravel this, because people do love an oversimplified story about the language-culture interface.
You masterfully stated my view about language and culture in these sentences, Tanya:
"Language is separable from culture. But language is inseparable from people who speak it, and people who speak it are inseparable from their culture."